round two in the supermarket
"So James. You Catholics say that Mary had no other children after Jesus. The Bible says Jesus had brothers."
"The Catholic Church doesn't teach that Mary had no other children."
"It does. I hear you Catholics saying Mary had no other children all the time. It's part of your Church's teaching."
"Look. I'm telling you the Catholic Church does not teach that Mary had no other children. It is a simple assertion of fact. If I'm wrong you'll very easily be able to prove me wrong and I will fall silent and never argue with you about anything again. It's true there are individuals in our church and in other churches who because of what I might deem a certain delicatesse and without the Church's endorsement, insist she had no other children. But it's not church teaching and it's not Biblically based. Maybe they don't like the thought of the Blessed Mother having marital relations. Maybe they think they're being respectful. Yes, they might feel they were being reverent in insisting that Mary had no other children. They might even be correct. I don't know. I wasn't there. But I can tell you, it is not formal church teaching."
"So you agree with us that Mary had other children and that Jesus had brothers."
"I didn't say that. You might be right. You might be wrong. Those who think she had no other children may be correct. I just said if they are correct it's not because of direct instruction from the Church or because the Bible gives a clear ruling."
"You're wrong again James. The Bible does give a clear ruling. The Bible says Jesus had brothers. There's one called James. Then Joset. And Simon. And Jude."
"Yes but the Hebrew word for brothers can mean cousins, kinsmen, close friends, and what have you."
"Oh come on James. Pull the other one."
"Again we're dealing with matters of fact. I'm saying to you without evasion or hedging my words, that a substantial coterie of the best scholars, not me, but the credentialled geniuses of international Academe, Catholic, non Catholic and atheist, maintain that the Hebrews used the word 'brother' to indicate not just blood brothers but kinsmen, cousins, fellows of the same tribe or village or nation, and all sorts of other associates. You know a Muslim once called me his brother. I don't think he was claiming that Lil and Tom had ever dropped a few sprogs in Arabia during a previously unknown visit in the 1950s, and that there's a lost tribe of curiously good looking argumentative Healy Arabs engaging in furious political discourse about the proper interpretation of the Quran right this moment in downtown Riyadh. At no point have scholars been able to determine whether the brothers of Jesus mentioned in the Bible are his cousins or close friends or something else. This is a living discussion and it has gone on among believers for more than a thousand years. It is an open question within the Catholic Church and among other Christians. You know, it's possible for me to see Mary like an old Irish woman who allows half the town to consider themselves her children. I've known such people in my own town. There was a woman in County Laois I knew of who had about a dozen adopted kids as well as four of her own. There's a lawyer in the West of Ireland who always called my parents her Mammy and Daddy. She was mad as a brush but that's not the point. My own rolling of the eyes in this particular case notwithstanding, there is no diminution of the brothers and sisters who are not blood brothers or sisters. The Bible may have been perfectly specific in talking about Jesus' brothers, but it may not have meant specifically what you want it to have meant. The brotherhood is true even if it's not by birth. There are also serious enough scholars who think Josesph might have been an old man and that he might have had other children before he married Mary who were then raised as brothers of Jesus in the same household. You and I may have feelings on this matter, perhaps feelings based on scholarship, even spiritual feelings, even feelings that approach certainty about whether Mary had other children or not. The truth is we don't know."
"The Catholic Church doesn't teach that Mary had no other children."
"It does. I hear you Catholics saying Mary had no other children all the time. It's part of your Church's teaching."
"Look. I'm telling you the Catholic Church does not teach that Mary had no other children. It is a simple assertion of fact. If I'm wrong you'll very easily be able to prove me wrong and I will fall silent and never argue with you about anything again. It's true there are individuals in our church and in other churches who because of what I might deem a certain delicatesse and without the Church's endorsement, insist she had no other children. But it's not church teaching and it's not Biblically based. Maybe they don't like the thought of the Blessed Mother having marital relations. Maybe they think they're being respectful. Yes, they might feel they were being reverent in insisting that Mary had no other children. They might even be correct. I don't know. I wasn't there. But I can tell you, it is not formal church teaching."
"So you agree with us that Mary had other children and that Jesus had brothers."
"I didn't say that. You might be right. You might be wrong. Those who think she had no other children may be correct. I just said if they are correct it's not because of direct instruction from the Church or because the Bible gives a clear ruling."
"You're wrong again James. The Bible does give a clear ruling. The Bible says Jesus had brothers. There's one called James. Then Joset. And Simon. And Jude."
"Yes but the Hebrew word for brothers can mean cousins, kinsmen, close friends, and what have you."
"Oh come on James. Pull the other one."
"Again we're dealing with matters of fact. I'm saying to you without evasion or hedging my words, that a substantial coterie of the best scholars, not me, but the credentialled geniuses of international Academe, Catholic, non Catholic and atheist, maintain that the Hebrews used the word 'brother' to indicate not just blood brothers but kinsmen, cousins, fellows of the same tribe or village or nation, and all sorts of other associates. You know a Muslim once called me his brother. I don't think he was claiming that Lil and Tom had ever dropped a few sprogs in Arabia during a previously unknown visit in the 1950s, and that there's a lost tribe of curiously good looking argumentative Healy Arabs engaging in furious political discourse about the proper interpretation of the Quran right this moment in downtown Riyadh. At no point have scholars been able to determine whether the brothers of Jesus mentioned in the Bible are his cousins or close friends or something else. This is a living discussion and it has gone on among believers for more than a thousand years. It is an open question within the Catholic Church and among other Christians. You know, it's possible for me to see Mary like an old Irish woman who allows half the town to consider themselves her children. I've known such people in my own town. There was a woman in County Laois I knew of who had about a dozen adopted kids as well as four of her own. There's a lawyer in the West of Ireland who always called my parents her Mammy and Daddy. She was mad as a brush but that's not the point. My own rolling of the eyes in this particular case notwithstanding, there is no diminution of the brothers and sisters who are not blood brothers or sisters. The Bible may have been perfectly specific in talking about Jesus' brothers, but it may not have meant specifically what you want it to have meant. The brotherhood is true even if it's not by birth. There are also serious enough scholars who think Josesph might have been an old man and that he might have had other children before he married Mary who were then raised as brothers of Jesus in the same household. You and I may have feelings on this matter, perhaps feelings based on scholarship, even spiritual feelings, even feelings that approach certainty about whether Mary had other children or not. The truth is we don't know."
posted by heelers | 10:50 PM
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